• Susan Tatum

The People Behind The Curtain

with Humberto Garcia, Founder Ethos Consultancy




The Great Resignation is something a lot of companies and consultants are talking about. Humberto Garcia, Founder and Principal at Ethos Consultancy, shares how making the people in processes of a company a priority can not only turn that around but increase productivity and change company culture. Humberto explains why the people behind the curtain are so important to business and how to have these necessary empathetic conversations.


Notes from the Show

Humberto Garcia is the Founder and Principal at Ethos Consultancy, he works with companies to increase engagement and tap leaders into the people in their processes. Companies evolve to serve their customers needs, but they should also be evolving and serving the people who make it all happen, their employees.


After COVID, people began to reflect on their jobs and their purposes. We spend over 10 years of our lives at work, so it only makes sense that employees are beginning to seek more fulfillment for their jobs. Humberto explains that the way companies can prioritize their employees is through open and transparent conversations. These empathetic conversations are important in business, especially for companies to see their people as not only professional but personal beings.


While companies need to make their people a priority before major disruptions in productivity occur, employees have a responsibility in this relationship too. It is the company's role to live up to the dream they sold their employees on but employees must partake in the conversation. Humberto says employees must also be open and honest and available to share their perspectives and feelings.


If you're interested in learning more about Humberto Garcia's work you can connect with him on LinkedIn or at the Ethos Consultancy website.


What's Inside:

  • Why make “people” a priority in your company?

  • Tapping in with leaders to the people in their processes?

  • The major shift in employee mindset from COVID and the post-pandemic world.

  • What does it mean to have empathetic conversations in business?

  • Seeing employees as both professional AND personal beings.

  • What can companies expect from employees?

Mentioned in this Episode:

Humberto Garcia -LinkedIn

hgarcia@ethosconsultancy.com

Ethos Consultancy


Transcribed by AI Susan Tatum 0:38

Welcome, everybody. I'm Susan Tatum. And today, my guest is Humberto Garcia. And Humberto is the founder and principal consultant at ethos consultancy. And I'm really excited about this conversation because there's a couple of things that Humberto has going on that are quite unique, I think. And it's going to be a good conversation. So, welcome, welcome. I'm glad you're here, Humberto.


Humberto Garcia 1:01

Thank you, Susan, really appreciate you having me on and taking some time to sit down and talk with me.


Susan Tatum 1:06

So before we get into all of this list of things that I want to ask you about, when I fill out my first question be tell us who you are and what you do.


Humberto Garcia 1:16

Well, my name is Humberto Garcia, as you introduced me, I'm the founder and principal consultant at ethos consultancy, and I focused on making human centric businesses with a focus on operations and culture building and not compromising on people.


Susan Tatum 1:30

So what does that? What does that really mean?, you worked with the operations folks.


Humberto Garcia 1:38

Yes.


Susan Tatum 1:39

And helping them achieve their their goals by getting the people more involved.


Humberto Garcia 1:46

Yes, so it's really about increasing engagement with people, but really getting leaders tapped in to the acceptance and acknowledgement that it's people that are working in processes and operations has people at the center of them, it's the complex variable of everybody executing on the day to day tasks that they have to perform for a company. So what it really means to me, it's when you're able to have more open and transparent conversations with your teams, especially headed up by the leaders, it really starts to demonstrate the value and culture of a company, and making the connection of how people are motivated, and inspired to do the work they do happens within conversations. And when you start to tap into that employee purpose, and how they contribute value as an individual, individual contributor, and as a team member, it really starts to open up the conversations of how to perform better in operations, so gives Leaders Insights, of looking outside of their roles, and looking towards the teams and the people who are experts and how to execute the day to day strategy that the company is setting at a high level.


Susan Tatum 2:47

So my, my experience with with operations, you know, in a company of a significant size, and this goes back quite a while. But I guess I think of operations from that in terms of things being very task oriented, so that you're following really set procedures. And I remember at one time that we were told that a process is good, if anybody can do it. But if it's so well defined, that you just can put different people in and they can they can do whatever the job is. And I think so, where I'm going with this is if that time there certainly I don't think there was much thought about who the people were that went into that, and how they could, what, what what could be done to make them better contributors to the organization as a whole and happier individuals. Does that make sense?


Humberto Garcia 3:37

It does make sense. And I do agree with that when you have a process that's very dialed in at a foundational level, which to me means that it's standardized, that you can switch people in and out and they understand what to do. For me, it still ties back into the people somebody thought about that process, but they didn't think about it just isolated in the siloed. department or function. They had to have conversations with other people and really understand how one change in this area is going to directly impact stakeholders relative to my area, but also what's the ripple effect throughout the organization. And that really comes down to cross collaboration. And if a process is very well defined, and very well set, you can do it through training manuals, or you have training programs where you also transfer the knowledge of the person that sat in that position previously to give some insights into the history of that position and how it's evolved over time. So I definitely do agree that you have a very dialed in process, and somebody could come sit in that seat and execute that process with very little or minimal contact, then you do have something that's repeatable and scalable and you have a foundation to build on. But where I like to transition it too connect that conversation with the people side, it's your company evolves, what you did yesterday is not going to be the service you're doing tomorrow, you're going to start to gain better insights into your market and your customers. And you're going to want to evolve with their needs too their needs are going to change as they get better acquainted with your company. But once they outgrow your product, you have a choice to capture the new the need they have or they go to your competitors. And for me, that's when the conversation really opens up to the people side. The ideas are coming from the people that are on the front line, they get real time information from the customers and their experience. And they get a better understanding than some of the higher leaders by these degrees of separation, it just naturally happens that they get further from the problem. So that does come back to the people and it gets built on that process that's very well dialed in.


Susan Tatum 5:32

So is this something fairly new? For companies to be thinking about? I mean, there certainly has been a shift to the employees. This is gonna sound bad, but the employees becoming more important to an organization or organizations finally realizing that employees they really are important as human beings. Is this is this something that is and I talk to people a lot, who are in let's, let's say process improvement, and that kind of vary, but they're not coming at it from where you're coming from, as the the importance of the people that are that are part of the process that are part of the operations? So is this something that's kind of new coming along, or some what's driving this?


Humberto Garcia 6:15

And I don't think it's anything new people have always been part of the process. But I do believe that the way we've kind of progressed from industrial nation to service more knowledge base, were picking our brains more and providing our brains more answers and capturing that in a digital manner and scaling that differently. I think it's just getting a different type of life, especially with the pandemic that put a hard stop to a lot of people's lives. A lot of companies weren't able to operate. And it's a lot of headspace to really think about what is the purpose of a company in my life? And what's my life and the purpose of the company. So it really has an opportunity right by, where I thought, I think the spotlight became bigger on just purpose driven conversation, especially at the individual level, if you can't go everyday to work. Well, what do you do with that time, while you're sitting at home, you start to think, you start to wonder, you start to look on your past and where you've been, where you're going and really ask yourself, Okay, can I see myself here again in 10 years? And what does that cost me, and what have I gained and having those conversations, the voice got louder in the spotlight really hit on the mental well being of people, a lot of things got surface. And I just think, too, in a digital age where anybody can record something and put it up into the world in real time, it gives an opportunity to provide more exposure to the topic of purpose, and people in the workplace. And around culture, the type of work I've done was initially seated in the early 1900s. So this has been around for a long time. But if I kind of think back in history, from what I've learned in school, we were an industrialized nation back then it really was just pumping out goods and products. And they were innovative, but it was done on the backs and the labor and exploitation of people. So in that, in my mindset, there was more influence, and a louder voice by these company leaders. And but a lot of good came out of it. And fast forward today. Well, employees have an active platform and a voice that they can use as well to discuss the other side of the equation, which is the people side business, not just the money side of business.


Susan Tatum 8:16

That's a really good point, too. They have a they have a platform to get to folks. So you know, one of the things that I was thinking, as you were talking was I had a conversation recently with a consultant that's in the leadership, training and development area and his target audience manufacturing firms. And he said that what he was what he was facing was that the manufacturing firms are so busy. They're trying to catch up. They're trying to get over the supply chain issues. And they've started saying, we don't have time to do this. We don't have time to do this leadership, this culture stuff. We know it's important, but we just can't do it. Is there a danger of that happening, Humberto that we you know, now we're in the space where we're conscious of this and COVID gave us time to do that. But reality comes back in and what happens?


Humberto Garcia 9:10

It is a dangerous space to be in it. Come it surfaces about to becoming kind of the forefront of the conversation with the great resignation the reshuffling and then people still talking more actively and at least me in some of the social media that sometimes I engage with, but I try to stay away from it just because that's it's my personal opinion. I don't like it too much. But you do still see a lot of people posting what their daily experience looks like at companies that are billion dollar companies making a lot of profit. But when a company says I don't have the time to focus on this, I'd like to well, this isn't a question of like, it's a question of what and understanding what it creates for your company yesterday is no immediate tangible financial returns on investment. But then you have to start looking at the statistics of what it says. And the last statistic I read for every disengaged employee, it cost you $16,000 a year, multiply that out by how many employees and that's what you're losing productivity. So when someone says, I don't have the time for it, it's really saying, I don't have the time to prioritize this. And if it's not a priority for a company, then it's going to cause something major is going to have to happen that disrupts like at a manufacturing facility, a big part of their workforce goes out the door and disrupts supply chain and suppress productivity. Well, then that gets them thinking, Well, what do I do now? And they have two paths to decide on it's I hire more people and just fill those seats. Or I do that in parallel of understanding, well, why are these people leaving my organization? What did the company and the leaders in the managers miss, that the employees were showing us through action through conversation or communication, or even through decision, disengagement, manufacturing companies are big on metrics data need to know what throughput is. And if you start to see a trend of that pattern going down, and quality issues going up? Well, there's something going on in your organization. And the obvious place for an operations person is going to be well, I'm going to look at my process and my systems and see what's broken or where my bottlenecks are. But, and I've sat in that scene, I understand that thinking, but because I also value the other side of people that took me a while to really figure out that connection. I also started asking, Well, what are your people saying, the team leaders on the floor? What are they hearing? And then looking past my leaders on my org chart, and asking them who do you know, influence these different social circles that are on the production floor? And at the middle of the organization to I want to know what they're saying, because they're kind of the hidden gems? They're not officially on your org chart. But these are the people that you see, if you look out into the floor, who do they congregate around? Who do they talk to? Who do they ask for guidance, who's a de facto leader, from the official leader to and who's the right hand of the team leader as well, these are people that operational leaders need to speak with to really understand what's happening in that day to day experience and existence of employees, especially at the line level, when it's very repetitive. The job gets boring. And that boredom could also be a reason of disengagement, too. And it's unfortunate, it's natural in manufacturing, but there are ways to implement strategies to kind of curb that as well.


Susan Tatum 12:13

So what that just from what you're saying it seems like operations has what, obviously operations has to be able to include the people part of it in their KPIs, let's say. And then what I heard you say was what the KPI the normal KPIs start going off. Look at the people factor.


Humberto Garcia 12:34

Yes.


Susan Tatum 12:34

So can you set? Can you set KPIs specifically for the people part of it, that then relates to what operations is accustomed to using?


Humberto Garcia 12:46

I think you can, I think you really have to focus on what kind of people KPIs you're going to put in place. I know there's specific companies that are experts at measuring human empathy, human engagement, mental well being, and they use different signs back tools to start measuring different touch points on the human side. And then that gives them some insight into what could be potentially happening on the operational side. So there's definitely tools and applications and software and people that really use data backsides to really support the return on investment, you start to invest in people. And once you can start to make some of those connections with the financial side, because that's where the operational mindset and logic is. It's hard numbers and cost and profit. The people side is engagement, involvement, transparency, and openness and communications. And then also the two way street of both leadership and employees, putting their part in to have these open and trust based conversations. Think that's the kind of the key to really make this hit home for a company that wants to measure the people side, but also needs to justify if we're going to spend money and leadership development, talent development, personal development, give them career choice options, and include them in the conversation. There's always going to be someone asking behind that, well, what's it costing the company and what are we receiving in return for that?


Susan Tatum 14:08

Sure. And they would be the CFOs office, right?


Humberto Garcia 14:12

The CFOs the people below them that they allow discretionary budget spend, but also want to know what they're spending on that it's just not something that's meant to be spent, but that it's actually having a real impact on the company, but the company has to realize this isn't just for the impact of the company. is probably impacted the people that are contributing value to your company as well. And if there's not a proactive conversation around that, then yeah, you rub people wrong, they start to disconnect, you start to slowly erode the trust you built with them, the day they sat in that seat to be interviewed, to potentially be hired, the moment they're hired, the company's responsibility is to live up to the dream they sold them on when they invite them to operate behind the curtain, because you don't get to see that unless you're sitting in a seat being paid to be there. And it's natural, and it's understandable. But there has to be an understanding on the company. And I think that's where HR, operational leaders, the hiring managers, the people that are requesting to have positions filled when there's a 360 conversation happening around that. And there's an understanding across the board, what it means to hire somebody why we're hiring them the value we need them to create, and how they were onboard, and that there's an actual process to onboarding, integrate that individual into the company, I think they start to get more insight from an operational standpoint where, okay, HR, the hiring manager, and the recruiters did their job on picking up the baton from here, and this is how I'm going to fulfill to live up to what they were sold on in that interview.


Susan Tatum 15:38

Makes sense? Makes sense. So you, you're you've you, weren't you, and you mentioned it before you were actually in operation positions inside companies. And then you've started your own company now.


Humberto Garcia 15:50

Yes,


Susan Tatum 15:51

consulting firm. So how tell us that story.


Humberto Garcia 15:53

So for me, it was a story that started from my childhood, as far back as I can remember, my dad's had his own company. So that entrepreneurial spirit is then alive and well since back then in my household. And a lot of that really piqued my interest in just getting involved in business. And specifically becoming part of my family business that I was always aware of it was part of our daily lives, I spent a lot of time going with my dad to the office to work, I saw the company grow, I saw the company fold, and I saw the company come back and become something bigger than it ever was. So for me, it's it can be done, the ups and downs, they exist, the challenges are real, it's hard, but you have to be resilient, just believe the path you're on, but not blindly follow that path. And for me, personally, I had a sense of blind following on that path. My brother is five years older than me, he went into the company as well. And I went to all the same schools he did elementary High School, which those two not a big deal for me. But College was the major first major step and decision I was going to make for myself in the defined adulthood at 18, as it is here. So I went into business administration got my Bachelor's in that. And the last class I took was an organizational development course which focused on the behavioral sciences applied to business and that seed got planted in me. And it was my first taste of something that in my mind, I recognize this is something that I want to do that I want to pursue, and I want to study and learn more about, it piques my interest to a point where I don't feel I'm taking someone else out someone else's path. So when I did my master's, I went into organizational development, I didn't want to do an MBA, which is the traditional course that you would potentially take after business administration. And those two years, I got to experience a lot for myself, personally, I grew a lot and professionally but I got tools and resources to look at the world in a different way. I got to analyze it from the human experience, from mindset from the psychology, psychology, where we've been and where we're going, and why we're here and what our purpose is, as humans and individuals in all aspects of our lives. And I really woke up and became my own person, I really started being true to myself and slowly applying that change over time. It wasn't an instant flip of the switch. But that switch was flipped, and ultimately what it told me at the end of the day, it's business experience, it's human behavior. And when we're changing things at work, and in our lives, that's what it comes down to. It's changing our own behavior. But it's understanding how that behavior changes over time, and what roadblocks that we're just accustomed to, and just genetically coded to put up, but how to work around those. And that's what I really loved about what I was doing in my work. And I really focused on that in the second half of my career and really built up the people around me and got most fulfilled from that I had a lot of accomplishments and failures as well. On the operational side. A lot of financial metrics were hit and exceeded. But to this day, if you ask me, What's the one memory that stands out? For me, that's the most important contribution I made. I got to sponsor and coach somebody at our company and watch them grow themselves and eventually become our Director of Quality at the company that and I sponsored him for that position. And for me, what I learned in those interactions with him and and what I hope he've learned from me as well. It's invaluable. I made a real human connection at work and built a real relationship. And I got to see what that brought into the workplace and not just with him with my team as well. So fast forward today. And what I shared on our previous conversation is when the pandemic hit through, it's part of that my position got eliminated from the previous company I was at, we were acquired, I on boarded with them, and their direction change and my position got eliminated. So I found myself in that same mental space that we were discussing earlier, it's, well, where have I been? Where am I going? And why did I go there. Not having that stability that I knew for all of my career in my professional life is scary, it was something scary to confront, and I didn't confront it right away it really froze me and kind of lived in that for a little while. But you start to come out on the other side. And for me, it was relying on all the tools and resources that I was given in my masters that kind of started going back to the basics. That was my foundation, my anchor that made me comfortable in the unknown. And coming out on the other side of that, it's, I decided, yes, I could go back to the corporate world. But I know I'm going to have to rebuild my career to get to a position where I was previously that I could have the privilege to spend money, how I saw fit, and blow that money into people development, where I could go into the work that I really want to do. And then I love and open my own company. But still realistically understand, it'll take me time to get back to with my own company. But I'm starting with my foot forward on the type of work I want to do and not having to build back into that work. That's kind of where I ended up and where I'm sitting now and why I opened my company and why I'm focusing on making sure companies understand where people meet processes.


Susan Tatum 20:49

So what would you tell us that you've learned in? So what are your two and a half? How long has COVID been around seems like forever, two and a half years, coming up on three years into it? What have what did you learn during that time?


Humberto Garcia 21:07

That, Fortunately, the momentum is still going and people are still at the center of conversations. And what I've learned at that time and talking to different prospects, clients, lose conversations, informal conversations, other consultants and just people from other industries, it's, they're very much focused and want to understand how the people side really plays into operations. But they want to understand it, not just in the realm of HR, they want to understand it in operations, and sales and marketing, and especially sales and marketing, because they understand they're dealing with human emotion. And that's how they're making sure that their product or service is being purchased. So I think those areas have been very much were well aware of the human aspect, but they are still driven by sales, metrics and quotas and hitting numbers. But at the end of the day, if you look at different studies and talk to consultants in customer experience, a lot of them talk about empathy. And they understand that when you put yourself in the shoes of someone else, and you speak from that perspective, you're acknowledging their experience, you're acknowledging them as an individual. And when you work that back into how you're going to create value in real life, they really appreciate that it's really about relationship building, they no longer feel like a transaction, they understand they're going to purchase something you are selling them. But when they're having a more open, honest conversation at that human level, they're more receptive and responsive to really understand, okay, if I have some interest in what I'm hearing, well, let me give the other individual an opportunity to really understand if they're going to be able to make a sale here. So that's kind of a two way street, and I look at it, that's what it looks like inside organizations too, there is an employee experience. And you need to know how that experience has been lived in your company. And that person is the front line connection to who you're trying to sell your product and service to. So why wouldn't you double down and invest in them as well, just like you're investing outside of your organization.


Susan Tatum 23:01

So what kind of person in my work I talk a lot about. So if you're looking at an ideal client, let's say it's people are really good at looking at the demographics. They're in this industries, this size business, this is their title, this is a job they've had in the past that kind of thing, what they don't look into as much as the psychographics of the person themselves, and what is going to make them a good client. So now I'm curious with you, and your clients and your prospects and people that you're talking to, what kind of person in operations what does it take to have somebody and maybe it's a company thing too, to be truly interested in their, in their employees and all of these things that you're talking about?


Humberto Garcia 23:48

so to be interested in their employees, it just takes being open to discussing how the people integrate into your operations. And there also has to be a willingness to want to explore that space. And yeah, and acceptance that emotions and feelings do come into the conversation. But when you understand what it is to talk about emotions and feelings in a business sense, which for me, it's, I do like empathy in the conversation, and it is understanding the perspective of other people. But you hear empathy, you just think of feelings. And there's different types of empathy. And when I'm talking about intelligent empathy, it's really understanding the experience of the people around you. And also understanding your own experience within that experience as well. And that's where the connection starts to happen on the common ground. And it's understanding that when you think about the problems and challenges you're having as organization, which also includes the successes that you're having, and not the major successes, the daily small wins that you're having as a team, and you start to discuss that and invite that discussion to the table. Well, now we're talking about diversity of thought and how to look at our company challenges differently. And that's really based on the perspective of each individual. They sit where they sit, because they bring value to the table. And if you perceive that they don't bring value to the table. Well, it's not a matter of assuming them and replacing them. It's validating those assumptions. And it's having the conversations that are open, and really discussing the daily challenges. But tying that back to the work that's being done for those teams. And you mentioned earlier that operations is very task focused and orientated. That's true. But how is that position built? What goes into it? What are those metrics look like for the individual? How does that tie into the team which is interdependent on each other to produce a collective compounding result? And ultimately, how does that contribute to company goals. And when you can reverse engineer that, well, now we're starting to touch on individual purpose, and how they see themselves as part of that value chain. And I think that's very important to hit on when you're discussing operations and trying to focus on the people. It's not always focused on the emotions and the feelings, it but it's still keeping in front of mind, the experience they're having within their position, and how they're contributing, and how they're being recognized and acknowledged for making that contribution.


Susan Tatum 25:59

So I'm so absorbing this conversation, we're running out of time, but I gotta ask you one more question. Because when we talked previously, you mentioned that it's realistic to expect something back from the employees, it's not just the company that has to be giving, giving, giving the employees, they play a role in this too. So what what is that like?


Humberto Garcia 26:20

So it's then being part of the conversation as well. And it's just basic human relationships, even in your personal life, if there's someone that's just taking, taking taking from the relationship, you're gonna build up resentment towards that person at some point. And similar in life, these are uncomfortable conversations, they could be proactively managed to when you continuously have these open conversations, but they're very tactical and strategic, tactical, meaning that they're talking about the performance and what's lacking and needed from the leadership in the company, to provide more resources, remove roadblocks, and also have cross collaboration, and strategic in the sense where you have to have constant touch points that are consistent. But you have to build that also into your, your company practices as well. And these can be built into the team meetings and the team interactions. So when the employee has to put their part, well, they have to be open and transparent. They can't hold back. And if they are holding back, and you sense that as a leader, it's a question of, Do I touch on that? Or do I ignore it and just push forward and keep pushing the performance and metrics. So it's a two way conversation that initially gets initiated by the company, because starts from the onboarding and hiring. But once the employee feels that something's are not matching up, it's also having the trust, it's built by team leaders in the organization, that they're going to provide a space to talk about these things in relation and relative to operational performance as well. So for me, that's when I mean that employee also has to put their part in it's just not a conversation in isolation.


Susan Tatum 27:55

Well, I also took it to mean that the employee has obligation may not be the right word, but so if you're if the employee is part of the building of the systems, they're naturally going to be more willing to do their best, right? because they're it's not like the man gave me this to do and I've just got to do as little as possible. But the the employees then they have to be they have to be open and transparent. This is assuming that because company has built the right culture around that right? Or they're, they're being authentic and and the doors are open or the communication pathways are open. But then it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect that the employees have to step up when they see something that's not working, or they have they have an issue and come forward with it.


Humberto Garcia 28:42

Yes, and it's a balance of both. Sometimes it might be one sided at at certain instances in time, but it's how do you kind of reestablish the equilibrium and try to be as close to that, neither the employee nor the organization can be everything in anything to each other. But they also have to understand what the commonalities are. And for me, that lies in the shared values that they have the employee on the personal level, the company on the professional level, and where they connect, at a human level, and what emotional spark they had that brought them into this company. And vice versa. The company knows what it's doing, when it's communicating their culture, their mission, their visions. It's that human connection, that's how they get people to purchase products and services. And also, that's how they get people to come apply for the job so they can capture the best talent that exists in the industry that's available to them. So I definitely agree that it is challenging in that balance, and within the employee side. But it is that open conversation, I really think it comes back to conversation at the end of the day for me, and it is imperative that the company understands how they are viewed in the lives of the employee, both at the personal and professional level, and how can they integrate that together. So they don't have those mental blocks where it feels like there's friction exist, that I can't be myself at work, I can't talk about my personal life from outside of work. And vice versa, that the company is going to ignore well, this person is a professional human being. They're not a personal human being. So I'm going to put that aside and never touch on that. They affect their lives, you spent 10 years of your life at work over your your career path in history with companies. So why wouldn't it be at the front of the mind of an organization to understand how am I affecting this individual when they are here at at our place at work?


Susan Tatum 30:31

Well, that's great. Thank you, Humberto, this has been really a really fun conversation. And I'm sure the listeners got as much out of it as I did.


Humberto Garcia 30:40

Well, thank you. I definitely appreciate the questions. And we could talk for hours about this aspect of work. And it's something I definitely love talking about and sharing and hopefully one conversation at a time it keeps growing, the moment keeps coming up. And if only one thing clicks in the conversation, I hope it is that people exist at your company, don't ever compromise on them. Even from the operational standpoint, it's still an individual interacting with those processes and systems.


Susan Tatum 31:04

That's great. For people that want to follow up with you and learn more about what you do. What's the best way for them to do that?


Humberto Garcia 31:12

They could find me on LinkedIn, as Humberto A Garcia and then also visit my website which is ethosconsultancy.com


Susan Tatum 31:19

All right. Well, thank you again and have a wonderful rest of your day.


Humberto Garcia 31:24

Thank you. I appreciate it, Susan, you too enjoy the day. Bye









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