Working the Online Stage
with Kassy LaBorie, Principal Consultant Kassy LaBorie Consulting
Whether we like it or not, we are living in a digital world, especially post-pandemic. Kassy Laborie is a virtual training expert sharing how she helps traditional presenters transition their content and skills to online platforms.
Notes from the Show
In today’s world online training, presentations, webinars, and workshops are used more than ever before. Kassy LaBorie is a virtual training expert who helps trainers and presenters create content and training on online platforms like Zoom, WebX, and Teams.
Whether you have presenting experience or none at all, virtual training and understanding the digital environment are crucial to a successful online presentation. Kassy helps presenters understand how to “authentically connect”. In an in-person event, the presenter will undoubtedly introduce themselves, make conversation, and get to know the audience. Kassy says this is just as important to do online! She gives a great scenario and example of how to get personal and interactive with an online audience.
Kassy explains that a big mistake a lot of online presenters make is assuming the audience will learn something just because you’re telling them. She goes over techniques and tools to combat boredom and involve online audiences in the message. The more participation and involvement from an audience, the more information is retained.
Online presentation has some unique components to in-person training: Appropriate use of the webcam, use of digital software and engagement tools, monitoring the chat room, and more. Virtual, digital environments are still real life, there are real people listening and participating. It’s important to treat an online presentation with as much skill and planning as one would an in-person event.
Kassy is not only a consultant but an author as well. She has written books on interaction and engagement (2nd edition coming soon) as well as one on production. These are great tools for consultants and presenters looking to begin virtual training. You can find Kassy on her website, LinkedIn, or via email.
What is virtual training?
What is the secret to teaching someone virtually & getting them to learn?
What mistakes are often made in virtual training?
Presenting in person versus virtually.
What types of tools are available to increase engagement in online training and webinars?
Small group training versus large presentations.
Mentioned in this Episode:
Transcribed by AI Susan Tatum 0:38
Welcome back. Today my guest is Kassy LaBorie. And Kassy is a virtual training expert. What she does is she helps people like me, trainers and presenters to to do that on a platform like zoom. So welcome, Kassy. So glad to talk to you again.
Kassy LaBorie 0:58
I know thank you for having me here today, Susan, I'm excited.
Susan Tatum 1:00
So we go into a little bit more detail about exactly what virtual training is.
Kassy LaBorie 1:06
First of it's something that my mother never understood what I did until March of 2020. So it's exciting times that we're living in today, with platforms like zoom and WebEx and teams being one of the, if not the primary way that we've connected with one another, the last several years, especially with the widespread use of those people need help figuring out how to authentically connect and do the work that they need to do, you know, through this digital environment. And so that's, that's what I'm helping people do. So before the pandemic, you know, I'm working with global learning and development teams, national ones as well, helping their trainers figure out how to teach the classes that they would typically teach in person, um, in an online environment using platforms like this.
Susan Tatum 1:50
I have questions. Were so you said authentically connect, and I love that word authentically. And I love the word human. So when you say authentically connect what's going through your head
Kassy LaBorie 2:02
with something that happens when people get on a zoom or a WebEx. And they think, Well, this is a computer, so I should act a certain way and not be what I normally am. And they do things that don't, in my opinion, make a whole lot of sense. And so I think that I help people, I have this thing I say master the technology, and then get over it. You know, it's like, we're we probably like in the case of learning and development where I primarily live. We're teaching people to use software, we're teaching them to become better leaders, or teaching them to do sales, marketing. And you know, it's unlikely that everyone's there to learn how to use Zoom. Right, we need to get that out of the way so that we can get to what we need to learn. And then somehow people just let the tech make them not act as they normally would. Like, I guess if I were to make that real specific.
Susan Tatum 2:50
What does that mean? Like we freeze?
Kassy LaBorie 2:55
Yeah. Okay, like an example is this. So if I went to a class, in person, you know, let's roll it back to you know, the before times, when I would go to a training, you know, normally the the doors would open, at least a half an hour before class time was to start. And you could go in early, choose your seat, maybe grab a doughnut, maybe meet the trainer, if you were the one that was there early, and the trainer would be there. Hello, Susan, it's so good to meet you. Where are you from? And you'd have conversation to get to know the people. Well, what happened when we went on Zoom? We didn't open it until one o'clock when the class was scheduled to start. And then we're just going to start talking. Here's the objectives. And here's what we need to learn. I forgot to ask you like who you are? Where are you from? What's happening? Where are you here? It didn't do this stuff that I would typically do. Because I don't know why. I didn't know I could a lot of people will tell me.
Susan Tatum 3:43
So if you that leads to another question that if you've got a fairly large group, I mean, how much time would you take talking to this board of pictures? Trying to I mean, there must be an art or science or there's certainly a skill to drawing people out in that situation?
Kassy LaBorie 3:59
Well, a large group is more like a keynote. And so if the door is open a half an hour before a keynote. And there's 1000 people there, I'm not going to walk up to the presenter and do what I just said. So it does depend on the context of, of what you're presenting. So if we take it to that large group, I'm going to do something that's more let them get to know me, and let them more generally respond in what maybe is like a prepared poll or some kind of chat question that they would answer that would be more opinion based, more general and maybe less personal, like the first example that I shared.
Susan Tatum 4:36
So you're doing something to get them involved, like physically mentally involved.
Kassy LaBorie 4:41
like, hook them, like we've talked about classic presentation skills is what's the hook, you know, begin with a story. And somehow, when we went online, we just sort of forgot those awesome techniques that we practiced and delivered on when we were in person. And it's like, and I guess it takes us back to that being authentic, letting people know who you are you You know, and and I think too, for presenters and trainers realizing that there's real people that are watching and listening. And you know, in our day and age webcams have kind of helped with that. But I came up in a time when if we all did the webcams, we would, it would break everything. So, you know, kudos to the technologies that have fixed that today. But that doesn't necessarily mean that the presenters and trainers have become all of a sudden natural at their jobs because of that. And so I still think we need to figure out ways to just naturally connect with an audience in the exact same ways that you would do it if you were in person. Like, just because it's on a computer screen, and we're connecting using our internet connections doesn't mean that I can't use conversational language and questions and stories and, you know, personal anecdotes that would be relevant within context.
Susan Tatum 5:50
That makes sense. So you're the people that you're working with. Now, you said it's professional trainers and presenters, mostly. So they've been presumably they have already had some kind of training in how to be a good presenter?
Kassy LaBorie 6:04
Well, that would be the ideal. I mean, most of them have at some level, if not from doing their jobs. And probably the most common thing in corporate training is that somebody's the subject matter expert, and then they are asked to teach it, and then perhaps they gain additional professional development on how best to teach once they're there. And certainly, the work that I do falls into how do I do this specifically in this online environment?
Susan Tatum 6:29
So what about what about somebody that hasn't had that kind of training that doesn't really, and God knows we've all sat through a bunch of boring enough presentations, even in real even in real life? So what is it that we talked about getting getting people involved if you're trying to teach them something? What mistakes do we make when we're when we are attempting to do that? Non professional types?
Kassy LaBorie 6:55
Oh, sure. Yeah, I think that that's an excellent question. I think the biggest mistake that people make when trying to teach something is that they think we're going to learn it because I told you about it and I have a mantra, and that this mantra, I call it my virtual trainers, Mantra, but it could be the virtual presenters mantra, but anybody who's trying to teach someone something, I say, ask yourself this and be very honest with yourself when you do. What did I just say? That you could have said? Or what did I just do? That you could have done? So where that plays out, you go ahead, go.
Susan Tatum 7:30
Go into that a little bit more. Are you gonna give us an example? I'm an I'm,
Kassy LaBorie 7:35
yeah. Okay. Here's an example. This is really common example that happens, when I'm teaching trainers to be good online, one of the things that they need to be good at is looking great on camera. That's the thing. That's just one thing. There's a long list of things. But let's just say that one thing. And so what how do I look great on camera? What is some of the tips and tricks? What are the best practices for looking great on webcam? So what I could do, because I've done the research, and I have practical practice, as well, as they could just tell you what to do. And it is what most trainers will do, they'll put a slide together says do these five things. And then what comes after that? Let me read those five things to you and tell you the whole world according to me. And then I'll go What questions do you have? And of course, you don't really have any, because you're asleep and you were born? What I do instead, what what did I just say that you could have said? Or do that you could have done? What I'll do is I'll set it up. And I'll say, oh, I want to look great on webcam don't we all want that? Yes, yes. Buying? I want to look great on webcam? What should I do? And I'll make a joke. Well, first off, if you want to get lost on the internet for the next three weeks, Google that answer. Or if you want to learn it right now, I already did that. And I compiled what I think are the five things that I think you could do right now. Take a moment to read these five. And I put them up on the screen for them to read and I take a drink of water I mute myself. And then I tell them click on some kind of icon, whatever tool you're using, click on the raise hand or green check when you're done reading it. And they read it really quickly. And when they're done reading while I'm being quiet, then I go okay, which ones do you want to talk about? And then I'll ask them to use the annotation tools or their pointers or something to point on or circle the ones they want to discuss. And then I'm like when you have a question, a comment a concern. You're mad at it. You disagree. It doesn't matter. Let's discuss the five things that I think and then I'm suggesting you should do but what do you what's your reaction to that, and then the conversation goes on for a solid, however long I want to manage the facilitation of it. And then what's important for me is to listen, to add in comments to encourage them to talk to each other and learn from each other's experiences and stories and ideas. And they've shared who they are, what they are with what what kind of concerns they have, and they've taken those five tips and made them their own through that process.
Susan Tatum 9:55
And then we will contest. So you just really, you know, you still have, you're still writing it out and showing those five points. But you're still reading you're making they've got to do something, they've got to read it.
Kassy LaBorie 10:03
Yeah. And then what questions do you have on it, instead of me telling you, you should do the following things for the following reasons, because I sense they don't care. If I pull up and say, Look, it says right here that you need to pay attention to the angle of your camera, what questions do you have around that? Then they're gonna go what we mean by angle, well, what are what are some bad examples? And then I can have all sorts of other questions. And then, you know, if you're with me, ideally, we have a lot of funny things happen, as well. As I like to follow that activity up with an assessment of sorts, where I bring in a bunch of problems on webcam. And it's a bunch of funny pictures of problem webcams that are appropriate for work, of course, and then I tell them to type in the chat what went wrong, you know, scientifically, what happened here? She was back late, Kassy.
Susan Tatum 10:50
Okay, now I'm getting it. So there's also. So it sounds like there's like two parts of this, there is the technology part of it, and how how to handle it, especially if you have to do it yourself while you're doing the training, and you don't have somebody that's running it for you. I mean,
Kassy LaBorie 11:07
there's an element of that. And I very much believe in having a producer, by the way, I did published my second book on why virtual presenters and trainers need producers. But that said, that doesn't mean that the presenters and trainers don't know how to use the tech. So after I do an activity, like I just described, there's going to be a debrief, because I'm teaching trainers and presenters on what tools did I just use? Yes, we talked about the content. Yes, we've just talked about the instructional strategy. But let's talk about the virtual platform tools that were just used, and how did I use them? And what you know, what, what do you still need to learn? like, from what I just described, if we were doing that in zoom, I would have shared my screen to some slides, I would have been on webcam and unmute. And I would have enabled annotation REITs. And I would have drawn them to the reactions. And so you have to know how to do all those things. How do people use annotation? How do I guide them to do that? How do I guide them vocally to use reactions? How do I then pay attention to those things? So there's a level of the technology that needs to be learned. And I have found that when I'm teaching people how to use the tech, what I'll do is provide a sample of the activity first on content, like I just did with with our conversation, and then the the teaching of the tool comes after because now you're interested in how did she do that?
Susan Tatum 12:24
So you have your your I don't think you were a teacher in a former life but you have a lot of experience in teaching right or to with Carnegie or someone like that doing
Kassy LaBorie 12:35
Yes, yes, I'm so I don't I'm not from education background and a teacher. But I did start my career immediately as a corporate trainer, and it was a Microsoft trainer first. And then I did go work for Dale Carnegie at the corporate Dale Carnegie and Associates and I built Dale Carnegie digital. And so being around that that's like presenters and actors, and people who teach, of course, and salespeople all that.
Susan Tatum 12:56
So I guess salespeople would be a large part of needing to know how to present persuasively, or whatever the right word is
Kassy LaBorie 13:05
yeah, there's that. Yeah, for sure. And then just through my career, you know, finding I have a degree in public speaking and acting. And then I find learning and development in college and decide that's, that's the world I want to work in. And so through the venule earning other types of certifications on instructional design approaches, facilitation strategies, those have been, you know, part of my entire career as well.
Susan Tatum 13:29
So I did neglect to mention at the beginning that you are an author, you have three books out.
Kassy LaBorie 13:34
Yes, yeah. It's hard for me to believe them. This talker wrote down some things. But I have another book coming out in September. It's the second edition of the first one, and it is called interact and engage. And it's like a cookbook, if you will, it's like a book full of recipes for engaging people in virtual training meetings and webinars. And then the other one that I did was on production side, how do you manage the tech of all of that. And so that's, that's what they're kind of like they go together as a team of books, if you will.
Susan Tatum 14:04
So it's something that a consultant or you know, some other kind of expert, that's not a presentation expert, but has to do presentations, could could buy these books and learn. Certainly a lot more than we may know now.
Kassy LaBorie 14:19
Interacting, engage has over 75 ideas on different things that you can do online. And then the producing book is going to give you strategies for managing the technology, whether you've got somebody helping you do that, or if you're doing that on your own,
Susan Tatum 14:34
it's a good thing to know that sort of basically how to do stuff like that, even if you're you've got somebody, because what if they don't show up that day?
Kassy LaBorie 14:40
Well, then also you want credibility you want you know, it'd be like, if you were presenting in person, you had no idea where the chair was used for, be weird. It may not be your job to like manage the chair. But you need to know what the chairs for. Otherwise, people aren't going to trust that you have anything to say.
Susan Tatum 14:56
So is there anything that we haven't talked about Cassie, that is a difference between presenting in real life versus presenting online like this?
Kassy LaBorie 15:05
Well, for when I think that presenting online is real life, and I think that
Susan Tatum 15:10
differences that are better thing to say
Kassy LaBorie 15:12
I know, it's hard to say isn't it doesn't it, it's like we have to, we have to figure out how to make it real. That's the thing. That's that's why it's like that's why we say it that way. Because when as this doesn't feel really can feel like you're alone, people aren't responding. And so although your presentation strategies are, I think the same, I think that all the things we've learned all the years about how you open and how you have supportive points, and how you call people to action, all those things still apply. But what we also need to learn how to do online is manage the technology in a way that makes it still seem like we're all real people here. And I guess that circles us back to that being authentic. Like that there's actually people listening in, there's actually people here who can participate. You know, it's like, it's like presenting on a radio show, but more, because people don't have to call in, you know, they already have, we can chat, we can pull, we can use breakouts, we can have them collaborate on whiteboards, we can get instant feedback, all those things. And so how do you use all that in a way that is as natural as possible. And it takes time for people to learn how to learn that it's there, and then learn to pay attention to it. It feels overwhelming for people to pay attention to it at first
Susan Tatum 16:21
and do you think it is more stressful on the presenter or trainer to be doing it online than it than it is? On a stage in front of people? I can't think of what to say it's not... this is live.
Kassy LaBorie 16:35
Yes. Online, I say online versus in person. It is only stressful because it's new and different. And if you think about the very first time you ever presented on a stage was absolutely terrifying too and maybe terrifying to this day. But at least the more you do it, the better you become at working the stage, if you will. And so it's like people have to give themselves a chance to learn to work the virtual stage. And you got to learn just how you had to learn to move and conduct yourself physically on a stage, you need to learn how to move and conduct yourself physically within this digital environment. And it's stressful when you don't know how to do it. And I think people get stressed because they don't know if you're going to be good at it. They feel like no one's listening. No one's giving you any feedback. What if it breaks, you know? And so you have to go well, how do I make them? How do I know that they're listening? How do I get feedback? What do I need to do to gain competence on if it breaks on how I manage it? And you have to learn those things.
Susan Tatum 17:33
Yeah. Well, I remember in the in the olden days that you you had to be prepared to give a presentation if the slide projector or whatever it was didn't work.
Kassy LaBorie 17:41
Yeah. Which was often, right? Just like in that thing, and and making it work and getting the angle right.
Susan Tatum 17:50
Um, I had a, I had a really good question that I wanted to add. Oh, so what are your thoughts about? So you're, you're doing a presentation and say it's on Zoom, and you are using some slides? So you've got the slide and you're off to the side? Do you go back and forth? Like do you just pull the slide up when you need to refer to something on the slide? And then go back to where everybody's looking at everybody? Or do you just
Kassy LaBorie 18:16
pick a question? Like you're working through the logistics of your space right now? That makes a lot of sense to me too like, what's first what's second. I like that I use more than one monitor so that I've got things that I can just look at as if I were looking around a different room. So I'll run the PowerPoint show on one monitor, but then I'll have another one very close by so that it's like within the angle of the camera. So I could have the chat streaming where I need it to look. So I can just glance at and for me, I will respond verbally to chat. Everybody who's ever been in a presentation or training with me knows that and I'll tell him right up front, listen, use the chat the whole time, and I will respond verbally. If you send me a private chat, I will likely miss it. And I will assume it is a secret. But when people say something, they'll type in the chat their ideas, I'll be like, That's a great idea, Susan would you mind coming off mute and sharing more about that, and I will respond to it as if it were spoken out loud.
Susan Tatum 19:13
That's good to know. I'm still there thinking about it, when you're to go back to your original example, where you were talking about five things that you shouldn't do on camera you should do or whatever. And so you're you're asking them to read something. So the slide is up there? And then you want it's like, Okay, who wants to talk about what?
Kassy LaBorie 19:33
They'll put their names next to which ones and then I'll call on them? You know, Joe, you chose item number three, let's talk about that when you're right. And I've got it on the screen. So I can see that I've got the webcams displayed on another monitor, I've got the chat running, so I can see everything without having to move too much.
Susan Tatum 19:50
So what are your what are the participants seeing though? Are they continuing to see the slide? Are they seeing everybody in a conversation?
Kassy LaBorie 19:57
They I mean, depending on the platform that you're using, but if we go back to the zoom, they can do the same kind of arrangement that I have, like a lot of people do work from two monitors nowadays. So they can put like, the collaborative space on to one monitor, and then put up all the cameras on the other monitor, you know, and then I'll have the chat flow, you know, everyone's got a different setups, whatever will work for them as a presenter and a facilitator, do you think it's really important for me to say, Everyone, let's focus in on this part of the screen right now, we've just typed which ones we want to talk about. And maybe at that time, I won't also use so much chat. Because we're annotating right now and coming off of mute. You know, it depends on the group, you know, the larger the group, the more that you have to manage these things a little differently. Like think, again, think keynote conference, and the way that you act and present versus small group training session, you know, it's different
Susan Tatum 20:52
workshop type of thing. So what is the difference between a workshop and a training session?
Kassy LaBorie 20:58
It's just semantics and how we will want to define it, I think you have to decide to say this is what I'm going to define for me whatever word because I work with all kinds of clients. And so might come into a company and they're like, what we call it this and I'm like, That's great. I'll call it that along with you. As long as it makes sense. For me, though, the main thing is objective, as a learning and development nerd, if you will. Objectives are what mattered to me the most, what are we doing? And what do we expect participants to do with this. And that drives everything for me, that drives how much time I need, how many people can be there, and the types of things we need to do to get there. So like an example of that, for me, like last week, I presented to 700 people ideas for engaging virtual training. And because with 700 people, there's only so much I can do without, I mean, I can't even if I were to ask one question, and 700 people responded, I'm not reading 700 responses, right? but that doesn't mean I'm not going to ask the questions and still let them do it, because I'm going to read some and I'm going to get the gist, and be able to feel the room and continue to present and personalize. But I just kept showing examples. And it was all from the perspective of sharing and inspiring and giving a demo. When a client hires me to teach their trainers to do what I just did. I max it out at no more than 16 people. It's going to be two hour sessions that we meet five times. And we're going to practice all these things in little bits with strategies throughout and homework assignments in between, and coaching. You know, the one hour show everyone is inspirational. The I'm responsible for you to be able to do it is a training. And that in my my language, my semantics, I like to use word workshop. So it'll be a series of workshops that will equal a training, but it's really about the objectives. So higher level objectives that are asking you to apply, to analyze to create. That's more than just know about.
Susan Tatum 22:53
Yeah, yeah, I think I think that's the way that I think of it as a workshop is more we're actually going to, we're actually going to do it here right doing work? Yeah.
Kassy LaBorie 23:01
And not only when you do it, are you going to do that you're also going to be challenged to try it in different ways you're going to be coached, you know, it depends on the level of what you're teaching.
Susan Tatum 23:11
Well, thank you so much for sharing all of this. This has been, you know, it's really, really interesting. The most of the listeners where they are professional services folks, experts, they're not some of the maybe professionally trained presenters and trainers and those sorts of things. But they're certainly not the big groups that you're used to working with. But for for those of us that want to get better at our abilities to present. And now we've got two books we can read. With the with your new one coming out in September. Are there resources on your website? Or there? You post on LinkedIn? Where would you send us?
Kassy LaBorie 23:47
Yeah, for sure. All those all of the above. So do you have a lot of resources on my website, which would include some previous webinars that I've presented that have ideas, I got podcasts as well with other ideas and angles just to listen in. I have some downloads too example, like templates for things, checklists, to help you get things together. And then on LinkedIn, I'm always posting ideas and new things that I am learning because technology changes every day. And I gathered people together once a month, I call it the Virtual Training hero Hangout, which would be extended to people that are outside of training, anybody who's interested in teaching other people how to do stuff in an online environment, I just extend an open invitation to come and hang out with other people around the globe that are interested in that. And so I call that the Hangout. And what we do is we just learn together and share things. Last time we met, we talked about polling and just doing polling in a better way, using some of the new functionality. And the next time we meet, this is just an example. I'm going to do my favorite team building activity, I'm going to show people how I do it in a virtual classroom. It's the one you know, where you sit back to back and one person draws a picture of the person has to describe the picture to them
Susan Tatum 24:58
I don't think I've done that one.
Kassy LaBorie 25:00
It's like a classic communication, listening activity. You know, how good were your instructions? How well were you at asking clarifying questions, blah, blah. But how do you do that online, because normally, it's a physical activity where people literally sit back to back, and the person describing the image can't watch the other person draw it. And so I've converted that to be done online. And I want to show the heroes how I do that. And, you know, ideally, that's inspiring people figure out how they too, can do it. I have all kinds of different ways that those are just some of the ways I'm immediate resources. And of course, I also work with people to run my certification programs. And I think you and I were even talking about that a little bit. Maybe that would be something that could be of interest if we gathered a group of people together.
Susan Tatum 25:39
That yes, I think that it very possibly could. So if anybody's interested in that, let me know. Let Kassy know. So your what's your your website is Kassyconsulting.com?
Kassy LaBorie 25:50
Yes. Exactly right
Susan Tatum 25:51
All right. Well, thank you so much. It's been very enlightening.
Kassy LaBorie 25:56
I really appreciate your questions, because it's something that I can certainly talk about for a long time. And I like helping people to figure out, you know, how to be good at what you do without letting something like zoom get in your way.
Susan Tatum 26:10
Yeah. And it's, that's very helpful. And it's something that just doesn't, it doesn't naturally come natural. You know, if you've not,
Kassy LaBorie 26:15
Susan Tatum 26:16
if you're not used to it.
Kassy LaBorie 26:17
It definitely doesn't. I mean, it's really difficult to I mean, it's not necessarily easy to connect with people in person or in real life. You know, it's not always it can be..
Susan Tatum 26:27
For some people, it seems like a natural thing. But yeah, yeah.
Kassy LaBorie 26:31
Yeah. You know, and then you add this divide, if you will you add this feels like a barrier. And how do we get through that.
Susan Tatum 26:38
Well, here's another question, because people talk about zoom fatigue. And I, so I've been using Zoom since zoom came out, and been doing things virtually. But over the last well, probably since COVID, I guess. Do you feel like it gets very tiring? Is that? Um, is there like some science behind that? Is that real that is it harder to sit through a workshop when it is online like this than it would be in face to face in person.
Kassy LaBorie 27:07
People are writing a lot about that. And there's a lot of science coming out around how things are affecting people and in all different types of people too in situations that we're all in. But I don't know that we could say that Zoom was the problem for the fatigue. If I were to sit in a lecture where somebody talks at me straight for an hour without asking a single question whether that was in person or online, I'm going to be fatigued. If I'm expected to stare into a camera, and I'm not allowed to act like I normally act because I have to look into the camera the entire time, or I'm in trouble, I'm going to be fatigued. And so I'm really big on let's be normal, let's be empathetic, let's be effective. And let's just try to help each other. And I don't know that I'm ready to blame zoom. But I would be more open to the problem probably being the strategy and the approach.
Susan Tatum 27:58
Yeah, that makes sense. All right. Well, thank you again, for giving us your time and your expertise.
Kassy LaBorie 28:05
Sure. Thank you so much for having me today.
Susan Tatum 28:08
It was most enjoyable. You take care.
Kassy LaBorie 38:10
Thanks, you too. Bye.